The comment section isn't working for Peshe's Post...

So here's my response:
Thinking about Poneiwozik's article, I believe that just as the mainstream has changed, so has its perception in the eyes of those in subcultures.
With Hip-Hop, it was White upper-class oppression; with the Z-Boys and Parkour it was the definition of sport and of the acceptable use of public spaces; with Punk, it was with fashion, banality and political deception. The list goes on. The point is what is "mainstream" depends on who you ask. It is all about your subjective experience of everyday life that people who do not see themselves as part of a subculture lead.
I have enjoyed this class because not only did I gain a new perspective on some subcultures I either had never heard of, or knew very little about, but I also got to ask myself the big questions about why I started calling myself a "Metalhead" in the first place. It was because I saw something in Heavy Metal music that was not anywhere else I looked. The emotions that heavy metal expresses are conveyed in a way that kind of spoke to me as a person and to my experiences in life.
In this class we have noticed that a lot of subcultures have been segregated by race or class or gender and we cannot seem to figure out why. I would say it is because people who break off from the mainstream form a group of likeminded people to help them start their revolution. They look for those who are like them; hence you see a racial 'barrier' in Rap or Punk and you see challenging of gender roles in Riot Grrrl. Each of these movements formed around people who felt the same sort of sentiments towards the mainstream, so it is not a surprise that those sentiments coincided with their demographics.
Finally, the debate that resurfaced: "arrested development". I cannot stand it, mostly because I see counter-examples constantly as I go about my daily life. Not wanting to be Mr./Mrs. Suburbs and wanting your kids to listen to Black Sabbath instead of Barney does not make you immature. It makes you different. This class is called youth cultures, but that title has always referred to who joins them, not who LEAVES them. There is no data on longevity in subculture because of this assumption of immaturity. People can do a lot with their lives and they will never truly throw away something they see as part of their identity.

Post-Presentation Post

I missed/didn't adequately talk about some things in my presentation.
Someone's card said they still weren't sure about the difference between Parkour and Free Running. The thing is people in the culture have trouble articulating themselves. The generally accepted thing is that in Parkour every movement you do needs to be efficient and help you get from point A to point B.
I think there might have been some confusion when I said that acrobatic moves are Free Running since some people might consider the Parkour moves acrobatic. But I am referring to things like flips and moves you would find in Tricking (Another similar type culture/activity). Jumping onto a wall and doing a flip off of it is not the most efficient way to get over the wall. Of course some people argue that these sorts of moves improve your proprioception and coordination so there is nothing wrong with them, but then the other side argues back that that doesn't make it Parkour. You can do those things, but don't call it Parkour. But then the people more liberal with their definitions say that Parkour is any kind of attempt to move through a space. That is why these discussions span many pages and many topics at the forums. Some argue that Parkour is the ideology and not the actual movements, and those are the ones who even more liberal. The guy who organized the meet-up probably fit in that category.
One thing I forgot to mention was the commercialization. The main thing I noticed was shoes. Given the types of things the traceurs have to do, it is important that they have shoes that make this as easy/safe as possible (running up or along walls). There is a market for shoes that have very good grip. When I was at the meet I heard a lot of talk about shoes. Style wise there isn't much I noticed, except sweatpants. Most people were wearing sweatpants. But like the shoes this was functional, as they were looking for clothes that gave them a large range of motion. One guy was wearing a t-shirt that said "Parkour" on it though if that counts as commercialization.
Anti-competition wise I found that MTV actually has a show called Ultimate Parkour Challenge, and the forums were pretty opposed to it being presented as a competition. Also on the site I see they have lots of links to videos of acrobatic moves which doesn't help the confusion.

Looking back

As we finish our conversations and presentations, what have you learned about the nature of youth cultures and how they operate? Looking back to the course questions: how do subcultures interact with so-called mainstream culture? How and why do participants choose to affiliate? Why do subcultures seem to form around race, class and gender categories? At this point, you should be able to draw conclusions about these social movements within our broader culture and their function both in providing an outlet for young voices and changing society over time. What are you thinking?

Getting Answers

Throught this research project I've learned a lot about the religious aspects of Wicca and have done some research into media portrayals of Wiccan culture. The hardest part for me so far has been my fieldwork. I've been looking around on a lot of different forums and things and I've found a lot of discussions that are interesting. In an attempt to get some answers for my own questions, I posted a survey on a Wiccan facebook group. I've actually gotten some (not a huge amount, but some) answers. While it's not a large of sample to get any genuine demographic numbers, with open ended responses I'm starting to find out what really draws people to the culture. Hopefully people continue to respond and I get some really great information! Has anybody else had some similar issues with getting in contact with your subjects without actually being a part of it? I'm interested to hear about what others have thought about their fieldwork experiences!

Rave Ideology

I learned a lot about rave culture today. Thank you to those who presented. At first, I thought it was just a huge party with loud music and lots of drugs. This is the case, but there is a lot more to it. P.L.U.R is very interesting to me. That is a powerful message and I think it should be taken seriously. The rave culture represents acceptance, diversity, and respect. Another aspect of raves that I found interesting was the fantasy mentality. Raves are a way for people to escape reality.

I think the heavy drug use takes away from the culture's ability to get the P.L.U.R message out to the masses. Because of the drug-induced happiness, people tend to not take it seriously. Personally, I would take the ideology of the rave culture more seriously if it was filled with natural happiness and acceptance for all.

My DIY

After watching the documentary "DIY or Die" the first thing that came to mind as important was the last section of the movie where a variety of the artists encourage the viewing audience to "do it themselves"; to get out there and do what you love and make it yours. The first thing that I thought of in terms of DIY things I had done was my music. Back in high school I played in a metal band I found through a Myspace Ad I posted in the musicians' section ( in the days of yore when respectable human beings still used Myspace). The band was called "Havoc Theory". We played a lot of small shows, 'showcases' and battles, some of which were in clubs in the "trendy" area of Pittsburgh, and some were at little holes-in-the-wall with terrible sound and no stages, and we even played a party or two. We designed our own t-shirts and stickers, did our own promoting (even made our own flyers), and above all we recorded our own music. Here's a link (I'm not in that band anymore but I am on the audio because those are the only halfway decent recordings the band ever did): http://www.myspace.com/havoctheory
These days I'm in a new band doing the same thing. It's a great experience and even though I have yet to make any money that doesn't stop me from loving what I do. I think the people from the documentary would agree.

Comic Shop customers

Hey gang,

Doing some research on my project (I'm doing comic book fans), I ran across this site. It's primarily a humor site, but as someone who spent all of his teen years in a comic shop, I can tell you that there is no resource that paints a better picture of comic fans than these little strips. Thought I'd pass along the site just because it's fun, but it also works as a window into the sometimes dark and unsettling world of comic book fans.

Disclaimer: there is some rough language if that kind of thing makes you uncomfortable.

http://ourvaluedcustomers.blogspot.com/

Women and Hip-Hop

Here are the questions we did not get to cover in class today:

What dominant structures are the women of Hip-Hip challenging? How does their subculture reflect the status of all women in society?

How are women in hip-hip different than men in the same subculture? Do they constitute a separate subculture entirely?

Also, here's a link to the video that I was talking about in class. I think this is a prime example of how women use the hip-hop subculture to challenge the concept of misogyny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRgIGMwZd2o

Any thoughts?

Art?

Before today's discussion I did not think skateboarding was art by any means. I have began to consider it as an art form after today's arguments. I only think the skateboarding done on a professional level is art. The fluidity and arrangement of tricks is critical to their achievement. Like gymnasts and ice skaters, skate boarders are judged based on creativity and aesthetics. This aspect alone made me think about skateboarding as an art.

In football or basketball, points can be scored in a very ugly manner. They are still points no matter how it looks. In a skateboarding competition the skills have to "look good" in order to reach a prestigious level.

I am still not completely convinced that skateboarding is an art, but today made me think about it further.

Thursday Discussion

There was a lot of discussion today about art and what makes something art that was very interesting. I asked if it would make a difference if the skateboarding was part of a performance. I found something like that on youtube in this video:
Link
It alternates between bboys and a handbalancer, but it is a creative use of the skateboard. I found another video of the same group doing similar things, so it appears to be choreographed. Just something to think about.

For the parkour article, on thing that stood out to me was that Atkinson did his research in 2005, just as youtube was starting up. Since then youtube has become a pretty big part of that culture. Parkour "samplers" are all over. From watching them I feel like there is a difference between the attitudes of the traceurs then and now.

Atkinson reports that a lot of the people he interviewed seemed to talk about how it was a personal thing, and the main thing that separated it from other sports was the de-emphasis on being better than others, but many of these sampler videos tend to be very show-offy and glamorize the person doing it, with their name often being very prominent in the video or description. Any thoughts on this? And in a more general sense, does mass-communication like this seem to affect other subcultures in similar ways?

Skateboarding in Bangor, PA

I wanted to post one of my brothers' skate video's which I mentioned in class today. It's very different from the one we watched in class which was made by a shoe company and was artistic in the skill level of the tricks and the mastery of the skater/artist.
Skateboarding is one of the major subcultures in my town and it's something I'm close to through my brothers. I think their videos, which this is an example of, are more expressions of a subculture. The focus of their videos is their skate tricks, but also a preservation or representation of what they're about as friends and as members of the subculture as it exists in one specific area at one specific time. There are inside jokes and interactions, for example the clip of the cop writing them a citation. One of the defining parts of the skateboard culture in my town is the fact that it is illegal to skateboard in public.

WARNING! They are teenage boys and there is cursing and I believe one of them moons the camera at one point. I apologize for any potentially offensive material. Watch at your own risk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0LEy4BZP5A&feature=related

Black Metal

http://www.norsksvartmetall.com

Awesome website... Check it.

Rave Subculture

The rave subculture is just one big party. We showed examples in class like the Electric Daisy Carnival. Are there big festivals for other subcultures? Do any other subcultures mix both childish aspects (toys, lights, etc.) and adult aspects (drugs, etc.)? Why is "childish" a common theme through many subcultures?

Please answer any or all questions. If you have any music you want to share, feel free to do so.

Unicorn Kid- Dream Catcher

Trends and Subcultures

I know I may be jumping the gun but I figured I would post before I forgot my thoughts on the articles we had to read for tomorrow’s class. I was surprised that Anime, Pokémon, and Star Trek were all considered part of a subculture. I’ve always seen them as a trend for youth but nothing more. I’ve begun to see that there is a fine line between a trend and subculture. A trend can lead to a subculture and subculture can create trends but there is a difference. Overall the collection of articles we had to read introduced a new perspective on subcultures that exist but oftentimes people don’t realize it is considered a subculture. I began to also think about the individuals who join subcultures. Do you think in some cases people join a subculture without consciously knowing they are doing so? Or are you only considered part of a subculture when others identify you as being part of one?

Tuesday's discussion

Hey gang. I never made a blog post for Tuesday's discussion so please accept this belated post along with my sincerest apologies. I feel we had a pretty good discussion on Tuesday, and we touched on some interesting points regarding merchandizing in relation to sub cultures, along with a few new ideas on that age old question of what makes a sub culture a sub culture. I think we covered all the bases in terms of asian cute culture and emo, but we didn't get to fit raving into the discussion much so I thought I'd touch on that.

Do you agree with the article's idea that you have to be in the middle or upper class to really take part in the rave subculture? I admit that my experience in the area is somewhat limited but it never struck me that way. Its main reason is the cost of drugs, which rings false for me. 1: drugs aren't completely necessary to be a part of the sub culture (though I do recognize how tied to the culture drugs are) and 2: Is there any less drug use among people of lower class? Obviously people with more disposable income can more easily buy drugs for raves, but people that want drugs find a way to get drugs. There are thousands upon thousands of addicts out there who will testify to that. Not that I'm lumping ravers in with drug addicts, but you can't comment on the drug heavy raving without at least mentioning drug addiction.

Do you think the ailing economy has affected raving at all?

The article focuses heavily on raving being specific to a certain class, but as we may have touched on in class today, I think that goes for most sub cultures. Are there any subcultures that are completely classless? When something hits the mainstream, like hip-hop did, it was embraced by many different people of all kind so of different classes, but when it first started in its truest form, hip-hop was very poor inner-city centric. Most sub cultures seem to have started in one class before eventually branching out.

Heavy Metal All Over the World

In class today Peshe mentioned something, which I never go to expand on, but I find really cool which is the way the Heavy Metal has expanded across the globe. While a lot of subcultural phenomena have remained local to the US heavy metal has spread to Europe as well as South America, Japan, and even some places in the Middle East. In fact, Europe, not America, is often considered the birthplace of heavy metal since it is home to early metal bands like Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and AC/DC. Then you have later British bands like Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, and Motorhead who are considered gods in the metal world.

But enough about history. What I want to really highlight is what I've seen in tour DVDs and interviews about the bands describing their experiences touring South America. Whether it's Megadeth, Iron Maiden, or Black Sabbath, or any other hard rock or metal act these bands have some of the most devoted fans they've ever seen in places like Argentina, Chile, and Venezuela. Megadeth even has an entire DVD devoted to a show they played in Buenos Aires. We can also see international appeal for metal in places like Japan, where Anvil has an enormous following. Heavy metal is also incredibly popular in France and many bands have been featured on what most might consider "mainstream" television programming. Of course one cannot ignore the Wakken Festival. Every year, in Germany, thousands of fans of all styles of heavy metal gather for a multi-day festival of heavy metal music and culture where you might have Exodus, Cannibal Corpse and Children of Bodom playing on the same stage at different times (trust me those are 3 very different bands). Finally there is the famous story of Acrassicauda, an IRAQI heavy metal band which was discovered by an MTV documentary director and has since moved to the states, and is considered a huge success story among metal fans.

Perhaps the reason that I am drawn to heavy metal, and that it continues to survive is that it has such appeal on this global scale.

Something to think about...

Today we talked about race in subcultures. Many people seemed to think that race was not a dominant factor for subcultures, and that subcultures having dominant races just naturally developed that way, but did not mean the subcultures themselves were racist. But the article about afro-punk gave me a different perspective on the issue. While blacks were allowed to participate in the punk subculture, their experience was not the same as their white peers. This makes me think that race must play more of a role in subcultures than we concluded today in class. Anyone else have similar thoughts? Different ones?

What we didn't get to in class today...

Hey guys, I thought our discussion in class today was really good and thought provoking. The article talked about different marketing techniques and how (or if) they are affective. There were two questions that we were planning on discussing that we never got around to that I was actually kind of curious about, and both of them pertain to the time the chapter was written, in the '90s. Is this article outdated? Here's a question that we were going to cover in class:


The article considered the brand 'Tommy Hilfiger' to be "ghetto" clothing. Is 'Tommy Hilfiger' still looked at the same way today? Does this date the article, and if so does it make it irrelevant?


Also:


Was what was 'cool' in the '90s still considered to be 'cool' today? Who decides whats 'cool' today?

Thoughts, opinions? These are definitely things that I was still unsure about after reading the article...

The Internet, the new Home of the Subculture

In class we talked a lot about how cool hunters and ad agencies have acquired and attempted to sell pretty much any subculture or trend that has surfaced since the beginning of the 90s. Whether it was Hip-hop, Rage Rock, Graffiti, break dancing, Punk, Exclusivity (as Lindsey points out), and a host of other cultures. We have also talked about how these ad agencies appear to create subcultures themselves or create cultural trends which people in turn absorb, change, and then feed back to them to influence new advertising and marketing: the Feedback Loop. However, we discussed a way that people can find new subcultural groups outside of this circular influence: the internet. With tools at our disposal like Pandora, Last.fm, and Grooveshark we can discover all kinds of new bands just by going to these websites. The most influential web tool I have discovered, however, is Stumbleupon. For those of you who do not know what Stumbleupon is I definitely reccomend you go to Stumbleupon, set up an account, and start stumbling! I have found everything from interesting subcultures like steam-punk, funny "demotivational posters", websites about psychological disorders, some of the web-comics I read (which are like a subculture by themselves), and of course anything else you can think of.

I encourage everyone to go stumble as soon as they find some free time and then share something cool or funny they found. It's a great experience and an easy (perhaps too easy) way to waste time and have fun.

Facebook/The Social Network

Hey Guys, Check out this trailer for the movie The Social Network: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB95KLmpLR4,
then share your thoughts on facebook. Why is it so popular and so addictive? This is my idea, because it taps into the greatest marketable element around: exclusivity. The ability to be a part of something that others are exlcuded from. It's the basis of clubs, groups, cliques, societys, etc. According to the movie, Mark Zuckerburg invented facebook as a way to get the attention of the Finals Clubs, elite and extremely exclusive clubs on Harvard campus. It's ironic because (*spoiler alert for the movie) in the end he sells his best friend out of the facebook company and his friend pinpoints the reason why: when they were in college together, his friend was chosen to be in a Finals club and Mark was not. Exclusivity creates the most potent jealousy in people. But that's just how facebook began and how it first draws you in. Once you're in, what do you care most about? Not exclusivity at all. At that point it becomes all about attention. A status update. What does that even mean? It means informing everyone about something you are thinking, feeling, doing, seeing, smelling, tasting, without them having to be present to ask that question, "how are you?". Now, you want everyone to know what you are doing all the time. You "friend" people you hardly speak to in real life. The better to have more people with whom to share you interests, opinions, etc. Of course everyone wants to know things about you, right? Hopefully? I'll finish up here by saying that I really enjoy facebook. I find commenting on peoples walls, status', finding out how they're doing, viewing pictures, all very fun and interesting. However, I found it amazing how exactly it epitomizes a youth culture and everything about it that draws people in. It takes the entire idea of a youth culture and puts it on the internet with easy access to everyone. Which leads to the question, if facebook was at first intended only for Harvard, why did it become something for the masses :) It'd be interesting to see what you all think. Was its exclusivity just too marketable for its own good?

How much Hipster can you pack into a Jazz?

I came across this video and thought that it was funny and interesting. It's a car commercial from Australia (unfortunately, we won't be able to buy a Jazz regardless of the effectiveness of this commercial). It seems to be simultaneously making fun of the hipster culture but also possibly marketing a car to it. I'm not sure that I have even wrapped my head entirely around who the commercial's target audience is and if it would be an effective commercial. I think they are trying to showcase the car's roominess and storage abilities but I can't ignore the obvious way that they are making fun of a subculture, especially a subculture that seems so reliant on style and material possessions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5dIzY7yvRA

Any thoughts?

Hip Hop A Learning Tool

Hip Hop is an eye opening tool that allows one to study American culture in particular. One of the major themes in American history and today is race. The role of race is deeply rooted in the Hip Hop culture. Hip Hop cutlure was made in a direct contrast to the many issues African Americans had. They spoke about poverty and oppression.
Today Hip Hop still deals with many of the issues that African Americans and otheres from the West African diaspora dealth with. One being the complexities of complexion. For example Rap artist are often judged for only featuring only light skinned women in there videos. This is an issue that has been faced around the world, but has greatly effected African American people in America.
Another issue that rap music raises is the role of women in their music. In the videos they are degraded and objectified. This is in direct contrast to the women's role in the African American community. 70 percent of African American children are born into wedlock and the majority live in women led homes. Women obtain more degrees and tend to make more money in this community. One would suggest that this portrayl of women is a refejection of what they deem to be inferiority.
Rap music often demostrates some of the issues that have been created over time in an oppress community

A Possible Explanation For Violence In The Rap Community

I've been thinking about why there is such an emphasis on maintaining a tough or hard image in rap music as discussed in Thursday's class and I think this excerpt from Barack Obama's "A More Perfect Union" speech, which was given here in Philly in 2008, provides a bit of an explanation.

"Understanding this reality requires a reminder of how we arrived at this point. As William Faulkner once wrote, "The past isn't dead and buried. In fact, it isn't even past." We do not need to recite here the history of racial injustice in this country. But we do need to remind ourselves that so many of the disparities that exist in the African-American community today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of slavery and Jim Crow.

Segregated schools were, and are, inferior schools; we still haven't fixed them, fifty years after Brown v. Board of Education, and the inferior education they provided, then and now, helps explain the pervasive achievement gap between today's black and white students.

Legalized discrimination - where blacks were prevented, often through violence, from owning property, or loans were not granted to African-American business owners, or black homeowners could not access FHA mortgages, or blacks were excluded from unions, or the police force, or fire departments - meant that black families could not amass any meaningful wealth to bequeath to future generations. That history helps explain the wealth and income gap between black and white, and the concentrated pockets of poverty that persists in so many of today's urban and rural communities.

A lack of economic opportunity among black men, and the shame and frustration that came from not being able to provide for one's family, contributed to the erosion of black families - a problem that welfare policies for many years may have worsened. And the lack of basic services in so many urban black neighborhoods - parks for kids to play in, police walking the beat, regular garbage pick-up and building code enforcement - all helped create a cycle of violence, blight and neglect that continue to haunt us."

When former slaves entered the workforce very few had any education that would land them anything more than a poor paying manual labor job similar to the work they did as slaves. So, the African American community has been playing catch up with the rest of the nation since the abolition of slavery. I think because African American males were unable to assert their masculinity economically, as is the norm in America, they began asserting it through a more feasible means of physical power. Do you agree? Do you think this in any way justifies the violence?

"She even pay her taxes..."

Hey guys,
So, today I was listening to the radio at work and it came to my attention that in a lot of popular "mainstream" hip hop/rap music coming out now, there is alot of glorification of independant women who work and make money and pay their bills and generally have their lives together. Needless to say, I was wondering what you guys thought about this new trend. Is this just the more mainstream influence trying to turn the negative stereotype around? Or, in the rap culture, is there a genuine turning of the tides away from "bitches and hoes" and towards successful, accomplished and respectable women?

A Lesson in Violence

"I love to stab my victims until they're dead /

a knife to the throat, a smashing blow to the head /

I'm judge and jury / my sentence has just been passed/

step into the circle of hell / if you think you can last

fight for what you believe to be right /

crushing with all your might /

I laugh at their pitiful cries /

they run from the fire in my eyes

nothing can save them now /

you've learned a lesson in violence /

get on your knees and bow /

or learn a lesson in violence" - Exodus

I was thinking after class ended today about our discussion of violence in the lyrics of other music besides rap and I brought up an example of a song "Davidian" by Machinehead, that had violent references but they were not directed so much at a person in particular. After we made the comparison that rap was so much more personal about violence I realized that heavy metal can get equally personal. I even gave the example of "Aesthetics of Hate" by the same band, which has a much more personal message. Or take the lyrics above, from Exodus' "A Lesson in Violence", which are extremely violent and direct. If we were to examine punk for directed examples of violence one only need listen to "Beat on the Brat" (Ramones) or "Kill the Poor" (Dead Kennedys). What I noticed, however, is that there is more consistent concern over the violence of the lyrics in Rap music, while heavy metal and punk are just 'those angry genres that always act like that'. So why is this the case? I cannot honestly say I know. More recently, Megadeth just released a song "Headcrusher" which waas about exactly what the title says. They did not catch any criticism. I bet a rapper would have. What do you think?

Different view

I was thinking about what Peshe said about coming from the feminist point of view on dressing a certain way. I believe that it can definitely apply. Dressing that way gives a woman an amount of power over fellow men and women. It can certainly lead to actions on the other side of the spectrum (molestation, rape, etc.), however it can also yield a certain hold on the people surrounding them.

Thoughts?

Hip Hop Classics.

Once upon a time, a long long time ago, there was a golden age, when ambrosia rained down from the skies and hip hop was in its prime, that time was the 90's, specifically 1994 and many hip hop albums that were released that would blow minds and drop jaws.

East Coast

Notorious B.I.G. - Ready to Die(1994)

Nas- Illmatic(1994)

A Tribe Called Quest- Midnight Marauders(1993)

Wu Tang Clan- Enter the Wu-Tang(36 Chambers) (1993)

Method Man- Tical(1994)

GZA- Liquid Swords(1995)

Jay Z- Reasonable Doubt(1996)

KRS-One- Return Of The Boom Bap(1993)

West Coast

Snoop Dog- Doggy Style(1993)

Dr. Dre- The Chronic(1992)

N.W.A- Straight Outta Compton(1988).

Ice Cube- Amerikkka's Most Wanted(1990)

Ice T- O.G. Original Gangster(1991)

All of these albums are excellent my favorites are Ready to Die, Illmatic, and Midnight Marauders. This list about sums up the golden age, now it just seems as though it was all a dream.

YOU SHOULD DEFINITELY COMMENT ON THIS ONE!

Hello! Since we ran out of time, Kim and I thought we would post one of our last questions that we didn't touch on in case anyone wanted to discuss it. If you didn't speak in class, now's your chance to let us know what you think!

Many rappers talk about their experiences of alienation, unemployment, police harassment, and social and economic isolation through their language, style, and attitude. Does this still apply to rappers today? What purpose do they serve in representing themselves and their communities? What hardships do they face?

The Grey Album

After talking about it in class today and listening to it after class, I'm realizing how much everybody needs to listen to this album. So, here's a download link for everyone. Since the album was yanked almost as soon as it was released (longer history here), and the only way to get it is through "illicit" means, I figure I'm just providing a shorter route to attaining it, not breaking the law. Enjoy.

files.me.com/jerschobel/hzu5dk

Hip Hop, Graffiti, Art: Freedom

We have had a lot of discussion about what this subculture is all about and how graffiti relates to it, and what art is. We have talked over and over about the pro's and cons of the subculture and how graffiti can be detrimental as well as positive. The truth is Hip Hop, Graffiti, Art are all about freedom of expression, we live in a world where your limited in freedom by your job, your background, your race, your socioeconomic status, and these are all ways out. In the end thats what its all about freedom.

The Power of the Pseudonym

Throughout the entire video, not one artist was introduced by his own name. Whether it was Cap, Daze, Dondi, Frosty Freeze, Kase 2, Seen, Skeme, or Crazy Legs, the names were not the ones they were born with. The use of pseudonyms signified that recognition did not matter to them in the same way as it did (and still does) to "conventional artists." One could argue that the art of graffiti holds more integrity than art in a museum for this reason. On the other side of the coin, one could argue that they are hiding behind a false identity so that their actions don't have any repercussions. Today, the concept of a pseudonym is slightly more complex. In the case of Banksy, the most widely known current "street artist," the public doesn't know his true identity. The pseudonym actually serves a purpose, adding to the mystery that surrounds him and his work. Additionally, there are theories that Banksy is a group of people instead of one man. Either way, the power of the pseudonym is undeniable.

Graffiti is art - Tagging is not

After this morning's discussion, I believe that graffiti is art; a nonconvention form of art, but art none-the-less. The writers are looking to shock and sometimes anger the viewers. Most are looking to get their message across and the method of doing that just happens to be painting on a public surface. Yes, it can create controversy and anger many people, but that's the whole point- to create a piece of controversial art, have people see it, and get a reaction to it, regardless if it's positive or negative. The writers in the video blantantly state they are trying to get as many people to see and recognize it as possible, hence trains being a popular medium. Unfortunately, there is also tagging, which I think is complete destruction. Taggers are simply there to destroy something and get attention for it. It is not pretty, it is not thought-provoking, and it is not a piece of art.

Judging/Defining art

This is just a quick thought, but the quote that opened the video and our class discussion today stating that Graffitti is not art, but paint applied to a surface (I know that's not word-for-word) reminded me of what Truman Capote said when he read On the Road by Jack Kerouac. Of the novel, which most consider a literary classic and a huge cultural influence, Capote said, "That's not writing, that's typing." I think that both of these statements just show how objective art is, and no matter what, no one person can define art or judge it for anyone other than themselves.

From Punk to Hip-Hop

I’m glad to see that we are making a transition from punk to hip-hop. While hip-hop may not have originated during our time I find it so much easier to relate to. Similar to the evolution of punk, hip-hop has deviated from some of the original ideals it was founded on. Most of these deviations are still common within our present-day culture. In the case of punk however, we are not as familiar since many of its principles are not as common. Additionally, the video titled “Style Wars” puts a good perception on the meaning of a subculture and the struggle between artistic self-expression and socially unacceptable destruction. Some of the individuals go far enough to explain why they choose to “bomb” the subway—introducing us to the artistic aspects. Politics has taken center stage in regards to the issues surrounding the graffiti all over the city and subway lines. A few days ago (when I was responsible for leading the class discussion) I had asked if subculture could effectively generate a reaction from government through their actions? As seen in this video, some would argue the government’s reaction is an intrusion on individuality. However, can individuality exist within a subculture? Doesn’t following the ideals, style, and actions of a subculture make you less of an individual? Or is it possible to distinguish yourself as an individual through actions that are acceptable in the eyes of the subculture (i.e. graffiti)? These were just some things that I found interesting as watched this video.

Punk vs. Grunge

We have talked about punk vs grunge in our youth cultures but it seems like its hard to differentiate between the two in part because musically they are very similar but also very different. I have no right to say i am the master of these music styles or that i can comprehend each culture fully, but i will say that i have listened to both styles of music exstensively and understand them more than most. Punk as I consider it is much faster, its lyrics are often much more direct in their approach, the vocal style often involves screaming, the time signature of the songs is almost always in common time. As opposed to punk, grunge is slower and to some degree heavier, depending on which grunge band your listening to, the vocal range can be impressive or less then ideal, songs are not always in common time and in my opinion the stronger of the grunge bands employed odd time signatures, lyrical content is often darker and much more ambigious. In terms of ideology both genres are similar, as are most youth cultures that involve music, true punk or true grunge says the same thing to the same people; fuck you we are going to do it our way.

Week 4

Open for discussion about punk ideology, the development of punk over time (why did it happen that way?), whether the specific music technique matters (punk v. grunge), and the role of youth in critiquing society (Lipsitz).

Comment to Jonah's post

Blogger is acting up for me. I meant this to comment on Jonah's last post but it won't load the submission.

I see youth subcultures as a way for young people to develop a style and set of ideals that will carry into their adulthood. Often members of these subcultures are people who find their lives lacking guidance and see the community of the subculture as a way to find a place for themselves. But as most people age they find an individuality that eventually separates themselves from the nucleus of the subculture and they lose the connections they once had or at least don't hold them as high in their priorities. So though there might be older people at punk or metal shows, they may not be part of the subculture; they may be enjoying one of the few ties that they still have to the subculture (and music would certainly be one of the stronger ties) and are not trying to get a high off of being around young people and acting the way they do. Or they might be and just never grew up. I firmly believe that youth subcultures are strictly for youth.

Those Old Folks...

Today in class we discussed the idea of adults being involved in a Youth subculture and how that reflected on them. There was talk of "irresponsibility" and of whether or not adults are "creepy" or wrong for continuing to show up at concerts and the like. I consider myself a member of a subculture and possessing some experience with seeing of people of a variety of ages being involved. I have seen kids younger than myself and adults (both men and women) much older than me at metal shows banging their heads with the rest of the crowd. Some say that 8-year-olds are too young to be in that situation and it equates to being dragged to an R-rated movie. There is also the assertion that creepy old people shouldn't be hanging around with kids because they're obviously there to exploit them. Have you ever been to a heavy metal concert? I have. I've seen people of all ages there, and they're doing exactly what I'm doing: rocking out. I find it really cool to meet people of my parents' generation who listen to heavy metal. Whether it was at my mom's high-level banking job, the veterinarian, or the nurse when I was donating blood, I've met metalheads everywhere. I even remember walking down the street in an upscale shopping section of Pittsburgh one day and seeing a guy, fancy car and suit, with his windows down blasting "Of Wolf and Man" by Metallica. I put up the 'horns' and he responded in kind. This was not creepy to me at all, rather it was extremely cool. Steve has mentioned a similar experience with a teacher at his school and I am sure both of us have other stories we could tell. I believe that the reason people see adults at shows as creepy is because there is a norm that states that adults are too stuffy to have fun the way kids do. If you look at most pop music then seeing adults at a show like Lady Gaga or Britney Spears might be weird. However, when you look at a youth subculture there are people of all ages who consider themselves a part of it. To me that shows that a subculture is able to survive and spread its ideas (and in my case music) and you need an older generation to influence the younger kids. When I saw Exodus (a metal band) I was standing next to a woman who (to my surprise because she looked my age) was much older than I was. At the end of the show the guitarist handed her his pick instead of me (not a surprise), but she turned and gave it to me and saying "I'm going to give this to you but you have to promise me you're going to listen to good music for the rest of your life". I did.

Are business and commerce separate from a subculture?

I was thinking about this topic from something mentioned during Tuesday's discussion. Particularly with the punk subculture in mind, must subcultures be separate from business minded agendas? I've decided for myself that it's not so black and white. It seems as subcultures gain some notoriety from the general public in a capitalist society businesses want to profit off of that.

Youth are an especially big target for new clothing and it makes sense in McLaren's case that he wanted a vehicle to promote his style of clothing. I wouldn't say that this choice alone is one that pushed punk into the mainstream though. The mainstream acceptance of punk that would follow was a by-product of McLaren's efforts through the musical success of the Sex Pistols. In other words, the Sex Pistols' success is what brought punk to a larger audience not simply the attempt to sell punk clothing. Therefore it is surely possible for youth cultures and businesses to interact without that subculture losing its integrity however due to the nature of attempts by businesses to promote themselves sometimes it is hard to avoid.

Something Else I was thinking about

So while reading the chapter that we discussed in class today I came a cross a section which was intriguing, but didn't end up being discussed today which was the movements to "De-Punk" children by parent and law enforcement groups as well as the stories of teenagers who were put in to mental institutions because of their involvement in the Punk community. I'll write something about it on my own blog (which coincidentally I had started before this class began). Feel free to comment etc. I'd like to see what you think.

http://thrashingmetalmind.blogspot.com/

Jonah

Week 3: Punk's Not Dead and Punk Attitude (and other thoughts about youth subcultures)

I'll start off by saying that I definitely think style can be a message. I think Punk's had a definite ideology, an anti-establishment, anti-authority attitude, that was meaningful to them and had an impact on society at large. Style can be a significant statement and is not simply a trivial matter of how people dress.

Class so Far

Hello Everyone,

So my opinion of class so far is that I agree with the redundancy of the discussions so far, but I feel like that will change the more different material we get in to. I'm looking forward to discussing the Punk is Dead article that we read for tomorrow as it informed me of many facts about the punk subculture of which I was unaware. I enjoy the discussions and, as a main contributor, I will take the below posts advice and sit back tomorrow to let other have a chance to express their ideas.

Meta-discussion

Noticing a trend after only a few class discussions, I am concerned that our conversations have or will soon become redundant. At times I am frustrated by the frequent redundancy of opinion sharers, topics discussed, and general life-experience based support of opinion.

In addressing my first complaint, I really want to urge that more people try to share their opinions in class. After reading the previously posted blogs authored by my classmates, I noticed that a lot of people electronically voiced questions that the class discussions have engendered. I know that sometimes it can be difficult to find your voice during a class discussion, but I feel like too many of the questions posted by my classmates on the blogs are too insightful, contentious, or refreshingly original to not offer to the class as topics of discussion during classroom discourse. I also noticed that a fellow student blogged about being frustrated by things discussed in class that he finds to be “completely wrong”. I’m sure everyone might feel this way at some point and I would really love if classmates voiced their opposition in class. The discussion will not only benefit from varying opinions, but contradicting a classmate’s opinion can also be personally satisfying. Similarly, I would urge anyone who feels like they are talking a lot to perhaps sit back and listen a little more and allow certain people, who are slow to jump in, a chance to share their opinions. Some people, although they have great opinions, are a little hesitant to share, and self-monitoring your own “floor time” might help these students and consequently the conversation.

My second and third complaint to me, seem to go hand in hand. I really hope that everyone actually reads the assigned readings. I think that the topics in the readings should help spark new discussion topics and referring to the reading in supporting your own personal opinion probably won’t hurt your argument or ethos.

I know that I may sound hypercritical and possibly hypocritical, but I would really love to hear different opinions in class and think that our class discussion could only benefit from the contribution of everyone.

New Perspective

In the past two weeks I've found our class discussions to be mentally stimulating on so many levels. Prior to taking this class I've never thought of individuals or even myself for that matter as part of a specific subculture . However, I now have a broader perspective of different subcultures and why they chose to dress and act in different ways. On the other hand, I seem to be having a little trouble defining "mainstream." I understand the actual definition but it seems to be something hard to visualize. If subcultures can affect the mainstream over the course of time then isn't mainstream itself is constantly changing? These issues aren't contemporary in nature and will follow the lives of every generation. These class discussions have become part of my everyday life now. For instance, tonight I watched the VMA's and felt as though a new generation of music and style has emerged. Additionally, I watched how specific iconic figures took these styles to a new extreme (Lady Gaga, Usher, Kanye West). I look forward to more in-depth conversations in class regarding past and present issues affecting youth subcultures.

Discussions

I don't consider myself part of any subculture, so I have trouble relating to any of the things being discussed. Even so, I find the class discussions very interesting. It seems like the main problem the class is having is that no one can decide what exactly a subculture even is. Is it a group of people who have a common interest, or is it deeper than that? Does the subculture have to be the main thing in your life for you to be considered a member? Once you try to define it you risk leaving out groups of people who would probably consider themselves to be part of something. It all seems very subjective.
On a different note, I think the class also tends to fall into a hole sometimes where it focuses only on groups based around music.

Just Interest or A Participant?

I really enjoyed the class discussion on teenagers and subculture experience. Thanks to Laura and Missy for the great leading questions.
Judging from these articles and also from what we have experienced and known of, teenagers around the age of 12 to 18 are most likely to join subcultures. During this time of the life, one is eager to find out his/her identity and interests. Unlike children, teenagers just develop the sense of independence, they are willing to try out new and exciting things; they want to explore and expand their eyesights. Therefore, they are also the in the group that can be under influence easily (good or bad). Due to the divergent nature of subcultures, teens are likely to discover the excitement and difference of a subculture group, and start to be absorbed in it.
When teens gradually settled their interest, or say formed their identity, they start to see clearly what they really want and where their passion truely lies on, they either devote into the subculture group or drop out of it. People do not really "grow out of it" because they are adult and they have to take social responsibilities. As many of the examples shown by us that there are a lot of adults who are still passionate about what they are into when they were kids, growing age is not the clear cut line of in or out of a subculture. Age does matter, since it let people consider what they should do logically; but it really depends on individual situation whether people stay in the subculture group they were into.
Lindsey addressed an excellent point that I strongly feel as well that we need to make it clear--what is really being a part of a subculture and how is it different from just like part of it, or interested in it? Shouldn't one incorporate the subculture entirely into one's life style to be considered a part of the subculture? Or how can we define if the adult is still in this subculture?

Thoughts on Class Discussions

Although I am one of the quieter students in class, each and everyday I leave class with a broader view on things discussed and new opinions on topics. It's very interesting to hear people's views who definitely associate themselves with a youth subculture versus those who are not as involved with a particular subculture. I came into this class with limited knowledge on subcultures, and in only a few classes I have learned so much and also learned to appreciate why people join subcultures and how they come to be. Our class discussions have also made me think about myself and my associations with various subcultures and to what degree my involvement is in those subcultures. I'm very excited to see where this class goes, and I'm definitely looking forward to the wealth of knowledge I plan to take away from this class at the end of the semester.

Thought This Seemed Relevant

The Sad Science of Hipsterism
Not sure how accurate it all is though

Class Discussions

The group discussions add an interesting dynamic to the classroom. With a room full of unique people such as our class, the flood of different and conflicting ideas and opinions never stops. Some times (Most of the time) I find quite a few things said to be completely wrong, if not completely infuriating. But never the less, the format opens your mind to many different viewpoints and makes you think about your own opinion or stance on the given subject. I don't know that I "learn" like I would in a normal classroom setting, but this is a different kind of class, dealing with a different kind of topic. It's still pretty fun and it creates a freer classroom compared to most classroom's stuffy environment.

Is the Mainstream Necessary?

In class I raised the idea that school uniforms are a necessary addition to the American school sysytem. I think that looking at the idea of a subculture as a way to show that one disagrees with the idealogical standard from a place of privelege in some ways is bias. I think that when we have the ability to go against what mainstream it implies that we the ability to play a semi-level playing field. Many of the impoverished youth of the world are simply looking for basic physiological needs rather than a need to identify with music or clothing styles they can simply afford. Is it a true subculture that is built out of need to ignore our pyschical needs in order to maintain my identity? I think that many subcultutes in today's society pass their information through technology. How can they see this information if they have not even been afforded the luxury of computers or books in their classroom?

The Impact of Our Discussions

Who would have known just how different we truly are? I never realized how in depth our differences were until our discussions. Not only do we have subcultures in a mainstream society, but also subdivisions within these subcultures as well. During our youth we are constantly searching for a sense of identity, and these subcultures are what allow us to evaluate who we are as individuals. We learn what we love and hate, we find comfort in sharing these thoughts with others, and we develop into the people that we want to become. Personally speaking, I never considered myself a part of any particular subculture. However, I can now say that I feel compelled to. I am intrigued by the various discussions we have that make me think and feel differently about the world surrounding me, and one day I hope to find my true sense of identity as many others have.

There's your first time, but does there also have to be a last time?

In today's class we spent a fair amount of time talking about whether or not growing up and becoming an "adult" instead of being a "youth" means that you can no longer be part of a subculture with which you use to identify yourself. We specifically contended with the issue of 'responsibility' and whether by being an adult and having these 'responsibilities' we have to shut ourselves off from the youth subcultures we once were a part of. To me, the title "youth subculture" describes not necessarily the whole population of the subculture but rather indicates what stage in life we begin to shape our own identities as people. I have many experiences which have shown me that just because one puts on a face for the working world, or has a family and kids, or simply ages, does not mean that one has to abandon that thing that they identified with and had been part of their life for so long. I have run in to adults in all kinds of professions and levels of wealth who appreciate, and regularly attend concerts of, the same bands I like. For me this is always a fun experience because you meet someone who shares with you in that subcultural experience and stands as proof that your ability to be a part of that community can continue.
     While I will concede that the involvement may be less than that of a teenager or 20 year-old, adults still have a role as members of a subculture, which is to help bring that subculture to new generations of young people. In the story "Jackie was a Punk" the main character recieves guidance from an older companion in the subculture about how to act at shows. Similarly, I have seen adults who have brought their children along at every single heavy metal show I have been to. Whether it was Slayer, Machinehead, or Exodus, there were parents there, some with children half my age, exposing their children to a subculture and what it has to offer them. I believe this is what makes a subculture stand the test of time. The passing down of a subculture is what makes it a culture, not just a passing 'scene',with successive generations of members which help it to survive, and to grow.

Variety of Views

I have truly enjoyed the discussions that we have had as a class so far, and I'll tell you the main reason why: we have a variety of views. Everyone is not always agreeing with everyone else, and I love that. It provides for a much more interesting discussion atmosphere that many of my other discussion based classes are often missing. Not to mention, when others share their views, it opens my eyes up to new possibilities that I had not considered before. It challenges my thinking. I really enjoy that.

Youth Cultures Discussion

Thus far I have truly enjoyed our Youth Cultures class and the discussion that has taken place there. There are so many facets to each of the issues and questions we've discussed that I never would have considered on my own. Often, when I read the articles or text, I think I have a good grasp on the material, but through our talks in class, a new level and depth is always present and I am always excited to find such gems of knowledge.

Thoughts about the class so far

I feel like we've really opened a door into the seemingly bottomless depths of subcultures in class. I never realized how many groups actually existed; I really just wrote the individual members off as being different from the norm. Now I see that there is this "mainstream" culture and the "others" and as much as we want to give both definitive meanings, they have different meanings to each individual.

Creating new space

So, the goal of starting this blog is to engage you, the students in my class, in reflecting and sharing thoughts about youth cultures and other related topics. I haven't done that before in this public format, but it seems like a worthy idea to try out. Perhaps we will find others interested in the same content with whom to share our thinking. In the meantime, we can share it with each other. What are your thoughts about our conversations so far?